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Where can we go from here?

Discussion in 'Sea Fishing Forum - Shore, Boat & Kayak Fishing' started by Ramsrod, Mar 13, 2013.

  1. Ramsrod

    Ramsrod Rockling

    Since the MPZ discussions I,ve been searching the net re cod stocks etc. the first page that usually comes up, is that 100 adult cod left in the north sea crap written in The Gardian newspaper :whistle:

    Half the problem when you start looking into anything, not just fishing, is the misinformation, sometimes through ignorance, and often, through people with their own agenda's.

    So, as us anglers probably have more knowledge than most, what reasonable ideas can you come up with, to try and put things right.

    I honestly think we are now at the crossroads regarding putting things right, in another 10 or twenty years it might be too late.

    It's not all about cod of course there are many other fish, habitats, eco systems etc. try to look at the whole picture, taking many things into account rather than just giving a "ban all trawlers" answer.

    It's all hyperthetical of course, but I'm sure there will be some good replies along with differing opinions and debate.
  2. bigcod

    bigcod Rockling

    I what i think ray but to put itno words would upset a lot people you just need to look around the world to see which commercial fishing practices are sustainable and which arent it doestn take a lot of working out.
  3. robq

    robq Rockling

    I for one would like to see all trawling and netting banned within 6 miles of the shore :yes:

    The discard situation sorted PROPERLY once and for all :yes:

    Static fishing only within the 6 mile limit, I.E potting and longlining. The longline fish should get a premium price if sold as line caught fish as in the bass fishery.

    resting of nursery areas of the north sea every year.

    I am far from an expert but from what I have seen since I started sea angling in the late 70s, these measures would make a difference and are easily implemented
  4. Ramsrod

    Ramsrod Rockling

    It's hyperthetical Paul. Its obvious someone will have to make sacrifices if it were to be put right, are you saying you would leave things as they are for that reason?
    What are the places with sustainable fisheries doing? You might know but many others don't.
  5. Davo

    Davo Rockling

    The close coarse fishing season, and peoples changing eating habits worked wonders for coarse fish, so why not protect breeding stock of certain sea fish and encourage the commercial fleet to hunt different species? Easier said than done, i suppose.
  6. Baramundi Bob

    Baramundi Bob Super Leeds United !!!

    There are quite a few things that all seem quite logical to me. Discards has always been a contentious issue, and Like Rob I would like to see it sorted once and for all. The general public think it has now been sorted with the deals done in Europe. However, since the decision was taken to ban discards I know that commercial fishermens groups have lobbied hard to have certain exceptions put in place and many members states have worked hard for similar exceptions too. Basically the whole deal is being watered down and discards are set to continue. why oh why hasnt someone got the backbone to see these things through ?

    Enforced closed zones. Not MCZ a such but zones closed at certain times of year depending on what is happening. The trouble with MCZ is they are in one place, and fish move. We know from our own experiences that one year all the fish might pile up in one area, and then the following year they are somewhere else. Like this year they have congregated North of Whitby around staithes, other years they may be around Flamborough. How about mandatory trawling bans in areas where small cod congregate such as amongst the herring spawn in autumn. How about mandatory closure of some ares for trawling where spawning cod are known to congregate in Feb, March and April. Stop this concept of voluntary closures which relies on good will and honesty. Close an area based on knowlkedge of what is happening there, and enforce that closure rigorously.

    Enforce the rules already in place, and give proper deterrents. What use are laws and regulations if they are not enforced. Thousands of man hours are spent by Mp's and MEPS and all the other beurocrats involved. This costs us millions of pounds a year. New rules and regs are drafted every year. But for what purpose ? I often think why bother with all that when a skipper can walk out of a court still having made a profit from his crime ?. You might as well make it a free for all if your not going to enforce the rules you spent hours and pounds working on.

    Trawling ban inside of 3 mile. Makes perfect sense to me.

    Local sustainable markets. Small boats (under 10 meter fleet) working sustainable methods inshore and supplying the local food chain. Cut the carbon footprint and support local economies.

    Ban pair trawling, full stop.

    Ban purse seining, its obscene.

    Do not allow any member of the NFFO to have input to fisheries debate until they can put together a committee that does not exist of people known to have been prosecuted for illegal fishing. Thier sole purpose of being involved is to work for more quota for their industry. Fish conservation is a dirty word to these people whose sole interest in the sea is money orientated.

    Stop using fish oils large scale in the food chain and in fertilizers. I once read an article about the use of oils from mackerel and sandeel. Mcvities are one of the biggest buyers. So a lot of oily fish are being killed to keep us in buscuits or to make your flowers nicer. Whats the point in that ?
  7. Baramundi Bob

    Baramundi Bob Super Leeds United !!!

    I have a concern about changing eating habbits Davo, in that I believe that whatever people are told to eat, that species will be hunted to extinction. Remember Hughs last fish fight ? Remember he was advocating chippies and restaurants to sell mackerel baps ? Two years later, and for the first time in History, mackerel was put on the endangoured list.
  8. Davo

    Davo Rockling

    Your'e most probably right Glenn, and the cod is a good example of eating habits, i suppose. That why i mentioned protecting breeding species/stock, but whatever ideas mr joe public angler comes up with, its getting into the minds and politics of the mp's who pull the strings, especially in the EU, as common sense seems to be alien and non existent to the grey suits, unfortunately.
  9. lipslicker

    lipslicker Whitby Fishing Forum _ Simply The Best

    It seems that Hugh has ruffled a lot of feathers, but I simply do not know why. Us anglers should in particular be fully behind his ideas.
    Ideas which, to my mind, are eminently sensible.
    Look at cod. Where can decent cod be caught now? Iceland and Norway. Iceland, because they protect their fields, and Norway, because the fjords cannot be trawled through.
    I have been saying to have protected zones for twenty odd years.
    An adult female cod - one of 5 foot - can lay something like 150 billion eggs at a time, so could repopulate the North Sea alone. But we do not let them get that big before they are caught.
    Bass anglers are urged to put back their larger fish for this reason.
    I think ban all trawling within 6 miles of shore.
    Ban scallop dredging.
    And cordon off large areas of breeding grounds.
    If this were done - and discards sorted - I genuinely think the cod could recover within twenty years, to the benefit of us all, even the commercial guys.
  10. michael76

    michael76 Whitby Fishing Forum _ Simply The BestEST

    All really good valid points just to add to it there should be a cod nursery were the baby cod are cared for and released back into the wild when they are of a size with some fighting chance as the amount of eggs laid that actually make it to maturity and have a decen chance of repopulating our seas,and not only cod, bass,halibut,etc.its sustainable and responsible ensuring our childrens,families and the world's love of fish and the love of catching them.we live in hope.
  11. rab

    rab Whitby Fishing Forum _ Simply The Best

    some cracking points there lads,but theres a few things i would like to add. first i would like to see a 3 mile limit,6 miles has been mentioned,but small coast like the under tens would spend a lot more time tied up due to bad weather if that was the case,and as some people want to see more small scale commercial fishing that would edfeat the purpose.

    from my own point of view in my own area i wouldnt like to see increased quotas for the inshore boats ,as they target the very same fish anglers do.
    using longlines instead of nets sounds great,until you see the ground coverage from a commercial longline,its thousands of hooks and miles of lines.

    i dont know about you lads area,but in scotland the closure areas ,there are many and they are large, are not voluntary.once a certain amount of juvenile cod are being caught per hour of tow,the area is closed for a period of time to allow the concentration of small fish to move on.

    there are also areas closed for spawning for cod,again not voluntary closures ,but mandatory.
    the only fly in the ointment is eu boats with grandfather rights can fish in these areas,how often this happens i dont know.

    these measures are having a good effect up here at the moment,but only because the conditions here,and around the uk are providing the right climate for good stock recruitment. all the management in the world wont help if the fish cannot survive beyond the first year due to unavailibility of food.there has been a big switch in the main type of plankton in the north sea since the boom time,but cold weather,particularly around now promotes the species most juvenile fish feed on and thats why the numbers are increasing in most areas.

    mismanagement of european waters and a slack monitoring regime in the past led to levels of fishing way beyond what the fish populations of the time could withstand.the huge decrease in the fleet ,and stricter monitoring in the last few years coupled with measures like the real time closures are making a difference.

    large scale commercial operations seem to be the ones anglers like the least. i used to believe the purse seiners were taking whole shoals of mackerel for instance,and were out fishing every week. now i know they are only at sea for around 5 weeks of the year,and much of that is spent steaming to and from the grounds.i also know that currently the mackerel stock is so high these boats cannot drop their nets in the main shoal as they would never get them back.they have to find the edge of the shoal where the fish are less dense,in some cases steaming 5 miles to do so,thats one shoal of mackerel over 5 miles square,sometimes even bigger.their quota system is very strict,and after the overfishing in the shetlands 7 or so years ago they are under extreme scrutiny at all times.bear in mind,ices themselves freely admit they hugely underestimate the mackerel stock deliberately.

    we can moan all we like about what happend in the past,its not going to change what happened,but hopefully with hindsight the same wont be allowed to happen in the future. considering its the same regime now that caused all the problems in the first place im not too confident they are the people for the job,but they are recognising things like ices advice on stock levels needs to be heeded more closely than in the past.
    regional management has to be a good idea,the stocks vary greatly from area to area,in quantity,habit and species,so surely how they are managed should reflect that.
    cheers rab
  12. Ramsrod

    Ramsrod Rockling

    Thanks Rab, that's great feedback with some interesting points. Without all the information it's impossible to get a balanced view.

    I was also particularly interested in your point re plankton. Nature is very diverse, so the whole picture needs to be taken into account. From a personal point of view, that's where I feel the MPZ's can pay off. Hopefully in the future, if we can see some improvement on a small scale, it will provide some encouragement to us all instead of negativity. Crabs, sandeel, shrimps to mention a few, all play an important part but without a larder of sorts the numbers will never increase.
  13. Baramundi Bob

    Baramundi Bob Super Leeds United !!!

    I think this is the idea taken by Natural England Ray. Maybe it is the way forward, sometimes we are all short sighted and forget about the larger eco system which needs to exist for the rest to thrive. Would be great to have an mcz stuffed with fish. If this was possible I would happily do catch and release in there. Would be nice to be able to go somewhere with the chance of a 20-30lb cod on the cards or a 20lb pollack. I would put them back if it was garunteed that no nugget was going to drag a net through there in the dead of night and take them out.
  14. Ramsrod

    Ramsrod Rockling

    Glenn, it's so refreshing to hear or read about places that have a plan, one that is working. One that benefits not only the Eco system, but the people who work within it.
    I get depressed watching our waters going to the dogs and despair at what might lay ahead.

    There's people out there who can sort this, for sure.
  15. big cliff

    big cliff Rockling

    A very interesting read there Rab , its good to hear your take on things :yes: :yes: :yes:
  16. rab

    rab Whitby Fishing Forum _ Simply The Best

    ramrod and baramundi bob raise an important point there,we need everything to be thriving so the whole food chain is well supported. in years past i think the problem was commercial fishing at the same level when the stocks dropped after poor years of recruitment. management measures and support were slow to happen as stock monitoring wasnt taking place on a meaningful scale.
    these days it might be easier to predict when stocks may drop,as the smaller bait fish species with shorter lifespans will show reductions before it filters through to the larger fish which have more options to switch to an alternative food source,although the survival rate of their offspring will drop as the number of smaller food items at the bottom of the food chain will have reduced. so theres no smaller fish replacing the mature fish,whose numbers will drop year on year ?
    ive tried to get a definitive time line of the big solway shore cod catches but cant find any info on big fish pre 1980,s.thats either due to only a few people fishing for them then and word not getting out,or maybe the big fish only appeared after the herring collapse as a result of having to switch food sources. it certainly seems to have been a unique shore fishery in the uk regards to the quantity of large cod ?
    even in shetland where there are big cod within a few miles of the shore i cant find any instances of 20lb plus fish being caught from the open shore ,but then there are huge quantities of bait fish like herring and coalies for them to sit under,so theres no need to be foraging close to shore.
    cheers rab

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