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Tonights meeting with DEFRA

Discussion in 'Sea Fishing Forum - Shore, Boat & Kayak Fishing' started by Baramundi Bob, Mar 10, 2008.

  1. Baramundi Bob

    Baramundi Bob Super Leeds United !!!

    Completely disagree Phil. He did what he did to feather his own nest both as a bass and a mullet angler with complete disregard for anyone else especially those of us who target cod, not one thought about how things could end up with tackle shops going out of business and charter skippers being unable to sell boats that they have invested their life savings into. If you want to get the opinion of anglers in any area you go to that area and you ask them, you go to their fishing clubs and you speak to them, you go to the charter skippers like Paul Kilpatrick, Mick Leaonard and Rich Ward and the charter skippers from Brid who attended the meeting and you ask them. You don't decide to speak on peoples behalves. When you attend parliament as an angling rep you need to diclare just how many people you are representing. THE SACN is an organisation of less than 1000 members, how can that be seen as representative of anything. Like was said at the meeting by a member of this forum who sat near the back, it is wrong to speak to anyone but the natives about their patch.

    With regard to the Yorks NFSA. Tuesday night our club held its bimonthly committee meeting. It was discussed whether to affiliate to the NFSA or The Northern Federation. After reading of my censorship on bag limits by NFSA and of the NFSA backing of bag limits + their draft strategy response. Our full committee decided unanimously not to join the NFSA. So along with all the other clubs in the region who refuse to join up we are signalling as a club that the Yorks Division of NFSA does not represent us. Do you not think that the lack of members for Yorkshire tells you anything Phil ? I think you will be reading more about the Angling Reps representativeness (or lack of it) in coming months issues from the angling press - keep your eyes peeled.
  2. Phil A

    Phil A New Member

    The reason bass was picked as a main angling species was because the Bass Anglers Sportfishing Society was actively working to improve bass stocks and there was a precident in that the stocks of American striped bass stocks had been successfully restored because of pressure from anglers.

    Explain to me how this would put charter boats out of business?
  3. smokey

    smokey Rockling

    Got to agree with you Glenn,i think the feeling will be the same in the Filey Club when it's brought up at the committee meeting.BASS and SACN don't represent the situation up here and it's because of these low affiliated organisations that we are in the predicament we have at present.I don't know one single angler up here that has complained to DEFRA about the "Dire" state of seafishing on the North East coast,so why try to fix something that aint broke? I get the feeling that the general opinion of local anglers is,sure we would like bigger and better fish,but given the choice of this with License Fees and bag limits or to be left alone to go angling when and where we want,it seems the popular choice is the latter.Like i said,the views of BASS and SACN have no relevance to the fishing up here and i would like to state that they certainly don't represent my views.

    The reason the likes of Paul Kilpatrick and the other skippers in Whitby will go out of business is because the likes of SACN and BASS have created the situation we have now and that DEFRA have pushed these proposals forward based on the views of people who don't have a clue about the situation up here.Like Crowey said,talk to the individual areas on an individual basis and base the decisions on local needs,it seems that the whole country has been tarred with the same southern bassing brush....tight lines
  4. Phil A

    Phil A New Member

    Smokey, the RSA strategy discussed the other night stated in it quite clearly that the local situations would be taken into account. Where did this idea come from if not from BASS, the NFSA or the SACN? Also you forget the fact that you have been invited to comment so you have not been ignored.

    Some people have very short memories when they say it isn't broke so why fix it. Just because in the last two years the fishing has picked up they have forgotten the many bad years. I was also told that in other areas anglers were not happy with the level of cod catches.

    You haven't explained how the charter boats would be put out of business. Lets start with this and then I'll get back to licences and bag limits.
  5. Baramundi Bob

    Baramundi Bob Super Leeds United !!!

    Hi Phil, All the people I have mentioned including Paul Kilpatrick read this forum. Most are members as are many of the regions tackle shop owners - I was sat next to a very concerned one at Mondays meeting, having just invested a large amount of money in his business surely you can understand his concerns. If you seriously don't understand how a licence or a bag limit could finish off their business(shops or boats) then maybe you could direct the question to them.

    I also endorse Marts views. He's spot on. If THE Yorks NFSA do one thing, then my advice would be to listen to local anglers, real local anglers who go fishing and will have to live with any decisions made. I remember at the last meeting that Nigel suggested the real views of local anglers could be found in forums like this and Chris Macks. Nigel suggested this would be a starting point in making a local response to the RSA strategy. However Phil you made a statement that if people didn't come to to the NFSA Yorks meeting then they shouldn't be allowed a say. Based on that Phil the angling voice of Yorkshire lies with the 8 people who attended the last meeting (J Amery, G Davies, S McPherson, G Kilpatrick, G Asquith, D Swift, N Proctor, P Arnott). Surely that cant be right ? can It ?
  6. stuartmac

    stuartmac New Member

    The last post sums up the situation. Glenn you criticise the people who are trying to represent the local people. Twelve months ago there was no one representing the local people. I agree with the principle that we should listen but knocking the NFSA instead of encouraging the local people to come and have their say will get you no where. You will end up with the Southern voice being heard and then you'll be able to sit back and moan that no one listens.
  7. Baramundi Bob

    Baramundi Bob Super Leeds United !!!

    I feel you miss my point entirely Stuart. To get the local people to come join you they must identify with you and you must understand their situation. By talking for them without first seeking their consent or knowing anything about them you are alienating yourself from them. Gwynn Davies seems to have a decent head on his shoulders. He has attended our club meetings and helps out the local angling scene with the sterling work he does for the Scarborough Angling Festival. This could be seen as trying to get to know the local anglers and understand their views. All I've seen from you so far Stuart is a desire to censor anyone who dares to offer a different viewpoint. Also note that your private meeting with DEFRA prior to Monday nights meeting was noted by many and those I spoke to were not happy about that.
  8. Phil A

    Phil A New Member

    Some History to put things in perspective for those who may not know.

    The situation is that the United Nations declared (roughly) that fisheries belong to everyone and should not be exploited by any one group. The Prime Ministers Fisheries Strategy Unit recognised the fact the anglers are a stakeholder and their needs have to be taken into account. On top of this when they looked at the value of RSA to the economy they found it was very significant hence the RSA strategy document.

    This would almost certainly have happened at some stage with or without pressure from the NFSA etc. However when the NFSA looked into why their numbers were dwindling and they asked members and others why this was the case and what should be done; those who responded overwhelmingly wanted the NFSA to work towards restoring fish stocks. This they took on board.

    Regarding the NFSA, DEFRA and the government only recognise certain angling bodies and so individuals have to work through these bodies. If the Northern Federation is recognised by the government then that is an alternative. I don't know if this is the case. Many of the people in the NFSA and BASS etc have tried many times to get the tackle trade interested. The guy from GEMINI tackle is one of the few that responded. Bob Cox who has been heavily involved was/is of course a charter skipper who caught cod as well as bass. Malcolm Gilbert of course owned AMMO baits at the time.

    Most of the problems that exist are there because of the apathy of the vast majority of anglers and so it would be unfair to blame the few (of which you Glenn are one) who are willing to do their best to look after the interests of the majority.

    I take it that you think that bag limits and licenses could finish off the charter boats. I totally agree that if it is done incorrectly that would be the case. However it can be done it such a way that it would have little or no effect. Whether or not you trust DEFRA or the government to do it properly and use any money raised used properly is a separate issue and that is my real concern.

    Let's consider licenses here's an example

    Normal full license £25/year, £10 pensioner and other financially disadvantaged persons. £1 day or £3 week for part time anglers, under16 free when they sit a simple test on angling.

    Guarantees on funds raised.
    License checking/administration never to exceed 5% of total money raised.
    Money to be used only for fisheries improvement, angling facilities and angling development (e.g. getting young people involved).
    No funding of any scheme without approval of angling body with regional representation.

    How would this impact on charter boats and would this discourage anglers in general?

    There is a lot of people arguing against bag limits without thinking about the implications of not having a bag limit.

    Let’s assume the government is true to its word and recovers the cod stocks and the bass stocks. If anglers are going out on charter boats and catching 300lb or more of cod per man, day after day, how are the commercial fishermen going to react when they are paying for a license and are restricted in what they can land? How could anglers defend this?

    Even now you hear anglers complaining when some angler takes a catch of 50 bass in a session and retains the lot. Are all anglers willing to accept that?

    So would a bag limit of say 100lb/man/day of cod on each boat and 6 bass/day effect charter boats adversely and be unacceptable to anglers?
  9. Baramundi Bob

    Baramundi Bob Super Leeds United !!!

    Like I say Phil. Direct your question to the charter skippers and shop owners. They are the ones you need to talk to before talking for. Paul Kilpatrick is the Chair of the local skippers association, I can pass you his number if you would like to get to know his views.
  10. Phil A

    Phil A New Member

    Come on Glenn let's have your views.
  11. wec

    wec Nunc est biben dum

    why dont the yorks nfsa speak to local clubs ,ask them there opinions and views ,show the clubs they mean buisness and maybe they will join.
    i don,t ever recall recieving any corespondance from nfsa ,in fact i'd never heard of them till recently.
    fbas has always been affiliated to northen fedaration . the nfsa will have to work hard at gaining new members imo,showing they represent the majority not the minority.
    are these your views phil on bag limits and licences?,or the views of nfsa?
    cheers bill
  12. smokey

    smokey Rockling

    Phil...We have been invited to comment a whole 3 FULL WEEKS before the RSA gets discussed in depth,which in most anglers opinion is woefully short of what we should have had.
    Secondly,DEFRA sounded very sheepish when Andy Crowe pointed out that each region should be examined on it's own merits,in fact while Andy was still mid speech Anthony Hynes turned to Rob and said words to the effect of "Thats what was said in Northumberland" so forgive me for thinking that on it's journey around the country meeting anglers,that DEFRA were going to consult local areas individually,it is 100% an after thought based on what they are hearing and just for the record Filey Brigg Angling Society has NOT ONCE recieved any correspondance regarding any of the proposed legislation,it's almost as if they didn't want us to know.
    The NFSA are openly supporting the need for licenses and bag limits so who exacly are they representing? because it sure isn't the anglers around these parts.This is the sort of view which will put the likes of Paul,Rich Ward out of business because if a drop in participation on the scales of Portugal happens,these guys will have no punters so when they go out of business and are forced to sell their boats,which incidentally are worth hundreds of thousands of pounds,who will pay them the true value of the boat if the amount of boat anglers nationwide plummets??
    As for short memories about anglers complaining about the amount of cod there is to be caught,you state that anglers in other parts of the country have been complaining about cod stocks,this is entirely the point,nobody i know has complained to DEFRA from this area so why should we face the consequences for situations that are not entirely true of our local area.Phil as for an upturn in fishing in the last 2 years,if you care to take a look at our club records for the past 10 years you will see they have stayed very consistant.So like i said before,if it's a choice between having to pay a license fee and have bag limits applied,or continue as we have been,the vast majority of local anglers would prefer to be left alone.
    If this,and previous governments had managed the seas around our coast like the Scandinavians in the last 4 decades,this debate would not even be taking place,so please excuse my annoyance when they try to make "Joe Public" pay to repair the damage done by the government and it's cronies....tight lines
  13. Phil A

    Phil A New Member

    The Yorkshire division of the NFSA has only just got going again - give them a chance.

    Does the Northern Federation go round all the clubs ie those that are not members? Who's going to volunteer to go round all the clubs and spend the time and money? Who's going to pay for all the correspondence? Join the NFSA and a give them your money and they might be able to do it.
  14. Baramundi Bob

    Baramundi Bob Super Leeds United !!!

    My views Phil

    If what happened in Portugal happens here then my friends on the charter pontoon will not be able to withstand a significant loss on trade. Its as simple as that. Also note many of their customers come not only to catch fish but to catch fish to feed themselves and family. If suddenly they are not allowed to take how quite a percentage of their catch are they likely to continue coming to Whitby. Also note that with increasing fuel prices both for the skippers and for the anglers travelling to Whitby from south Yorkshire - the added cost of a licence no matter how small might be enough to tip the balance. One Skipper sat next to me at that meeting has payed over 100,000 for his boat - he fears it may be worthless in a couple of years time. Another just had a new engine installed at £25,000 he has had to work over a year with no income to pay that off.

    Now if your really interested Ill give you Pauls phone number. His is a voice you should here.

    Also, The lad to my right at the meeting was The owner of Whitby Angling Supplies. He made the point to DEFRA that his trade is largely based on seasonal visitors to the town buying tackle to take their kids fishing. His concern is that if a licence stops even a percentage of those people from fishing then he will start to struggle.

    Now these arent just the feelings of anglers, shop owners and Charter skippers in my town Phil. This is echoed right across the country.


    Have a read around and see what people are saying.
  15. Phil A

    Phil A New Member

    Smokey, go and read what I have written and give me your answers to the questions I've raised and then I'll answer yours
  16. wec

    wec Nunc est biben dum

    the northen fed already has must of the clubs on their books phil,they offer an excellent liability cover for anglers .
    correspondence need not be expensive,must secretary,s have email address's ,though i don't think adozen second class stamps is out of the way for an odd mail shot.
    cheers bill
  17. Phil A

    Phil A New Member

    Glenn, I don't know what happened in Portugal but if the rumours are true then they made a complete cock up of it.

    I totally agree with you big license fees would be disastrous. Particularly for day anglers and children. I personally don't think children under 16 should have to buy a license currently I think they have to have them aged 12 for coarse fishing.

    When I spend £50 a day to go out on a charter boat I certainly want a few cod to take home but if I were charged £51 and was limited to 100lb I would not be put off.

    If the smallest of cost increases are going to cause the demise of the charter fleet then the extra costs of fuel in getting to the coast will do just that.

    My biggest fear is a lack of fish to catch which will definitely see the charter boats go.

    These are my views of course.

    The views of the NFSA on licenses can be seen on their web site.
  18. stuartmac

    stuartmac New Member

    Hi Smokey we have not had three whole weeks to respond wev'e had three whole months. The Strategy was made public in December. TSF have been running bits on it and at Mondays meeting it was suggested that DEFRA should have used them to publicise the Strategy. Why? it was already there and there were links to the DEFRA site where you could get hold of copies. But the no action NFSA sent it out to their members on e-mail before Christmas. Glenn has had a running column on here for at least the past eighteen months. Northbayotter had a petition set up at No 10 were you one of the few who responded? I am not defending the way that this has been made public by DEFRA because when Rob summed up on Monday night he had noted the concerns that were expressed about this. What I am carping about is the fact that this forum has had something about the licences and bag limits every other day and the only positive action that has been reported was that the charter skippers met with the local MP and Paul K went to a meeting in London with DEFRA is this all we can do? PHIL A. says give the NFSA a chance it has not been around for a year yet in Yorkshire but it did get DEFRA to come and talk to you. It did resolve the conflict with Natural England/NESFC and through its efforts manage to get you the local anglers a seat at the table. None of us know what the outcome of that will be but if we had not been there who knows what the outcome would be. We have increased our re presentation on the NESFC and through that representation persuaded the committee to set up a sub committee to respond to DEFRA on the RSA. We had two representatives in London yesterday at a meeting regarding Marine Protected areas. So we are doing something and Rome was not built in a day. Come to the next meeting on 21st April and have your say. I have just picked up on your post Glenn I was not alone in meeting with DEFRA on Monday night prior to the meeting. When you invite someone to talk it is only common decency to meet them and show them where the meeting is taking place. I am sorry you were not invited. You know full well that I live a long way from the coast and at my own expense come to the meetings both of the NFSA and the Flamborough Liaison Group. If you think there was something sinister in Monday night's meeting with DEFRA why don't you wait until the committee meeting and raise if as a complaint against me. The rules do provide for this. Instead of using the monitoring of this Forum to your advantage in a similar way that you only provide one side of the alleged censordship argument when you had the opportunity to alter the draft before it was published
  19. Baramundi Bob

    Baramundi Bob Super Leeds United !!!

    Hi Stuart we have already had that debate in the other topic and I have email evidence that you refused to add my proposed amendment to the draft. Like I said to you at the meeting. You censored me and you shouldn't have done.

    WRT your meeting on Monday with DEFRA prior to the real meeting it was the Whitby club chairman who registered his displeasure to me about the issue. He is hoping to join the forum soon so maybe you will get the chance to discuss the issue a little more.

    With regard to use of the forum to my adavntage Stuart. I note you have equal use too and I am more than happy to listen to what you have to say on here. One of my main gripes with the NFSA in that in the past they have done everything in secret and only people willing to pay them 15 pound each could be privy to their info. You have the opportunity here to have a voice. Why not use it to convince the people here that they should cancel their affiliation to northern federation and take one up with the national federation.
  20. Dav

    Dav Rockling

    Its all a load of bollocks . the government are not stinging me for another 20 quid ....

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