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Review of use of Birdash Decent at Bempton during Scarborough Angling Festival

Discussion in 'Sea Fishing Forum - Shore, Boat & Kayak Fishing' started by subman, Sep 30, 2008.

  1. subman

    subman New Member

    Scarborough Angling Festival will be considering the use of the decent at Birdash, Bempton in their future angling festivals and would like the views of the regular festival anglers and potential future anglers should the decent be effectivly banned in the future in all or some of their matches.
  2. robq

    robq Rockling

    Re: Review of use of Birdash Decent at Bempton during Scraborough Angling Festival

    I say not :no:

    put a disclaimer on the tickets and let people make their own choice about where they go. I personally think that the walk on over slippery boulders is more dangerous than the descent !! so easy to turn and twist an ankle :yes: If you clip on at birdash then you cannot fall

    At the end of the day there is nothing to stop me putting my harness with ascenders and descenders on and going off big railings in a match if I wanted to :scared: that is far more dangerous !!

    Once you start banning certain descents how do you justify allowing others ? who and how will each descent be risk assessed ?? and where does it stop ???

    Cliffs are all part of North Yorkshire rock angling :yes: let the individual make their own choice !!

    Just my opinion !!

  3. Baramundi Bob

    Baramundi Bob Super Leeds United !!!

    Re: Review of use of Birdash Decent at Bempton during Scraborough Angling Festival

    Hi Pete,

    Not something I would usually comment on but as it comes from a committee member of the festival I can see its a genuine question.

    Primariliy I think the decision should involve the people involved which isnt really myself but seen as you asked :happy:.

    The question of Birdash decent is a tricky one and personally speaking I can see many reasons why you are considering this. Initially I would say close it, but that would be selfish of me to say that as my reasons would not be objective - Basically because I would be too scared to use it myself. Then you ask yourself is it fair to have the mark open to only those lucky enough (or mad enough :surprise: :cheesy:) to have a head for hieghts. I also wonder if the question would ever be asked if the mark was unproductive.

    Being objective, I think you should leave things as they are and as they have always been - If possible :happy: :happy:. There are many reasons why I believe this to be true.

    1. Once you start to close areas for whatever reason (in this case it looks like health and safety ???) Then where does that stop ?. Non of the marks are a walk in the park. Would the next thing be to ban rollup decent and then Hawsker, and Ravenscar. The plank of wood at Cloughton is far from safe so would that area be considered for closure too. I know its a difficult call for the committee and I dont want to sound negative but If you can avoid changing things then I would because once you start you could all end up on Scarborough peir (if the council will give you a permit).

    2. There will be supporters of a closure - But are they being objective or like myself basing their thoughts on their own inability to use the mark.

    3. If you restrict areas it only displaces the anglers into other areas.

    All in all its a difficult question and I can fully understand why its been asked. One thing maybe worth finding legal answers to is where you stand as a committee if, god forbid, the worst ever happened.

    Good luck :wink: :happy: :happy:
  4. rubbish

    rubbish New Member

    in the saltburn club rope acess is banned only in the open but not in club matches. in my opinion an open is for every angler what ever his or hers ability and to try and bring in as many people as the club can, if banning rope access helps to promote a clubs open and in doing so they get more tickets sold so be it. i think the general feeling i get from anglers in my area is why bother cos you cant touch bemmo . may be they could make the matches 3 back 3 up so not to favour the ropes as much , more would make the walk and be able to fish the full match. if it based on safety only you have to remember signing a disclaimer will not take away all the bad press the club and area will receive if god forbid something did happen .
  5. quint

    quint Watch out Emperor Zorg's about

    Re: Review of use of Birdash Decent at Bempton during Scarborough Angling Festiv

    Reading between the lines, "all or some of their matches", it is clear that the debate is mainly targeted at the short night matches. The reason being that the venue would be fished anyway at the longer weekend matches so the venues advantages (it is the most productive festival mark) would be there anyway. In the short night matches access to the venue through the walk would be a no go as time would dictate it pointless. So the debate centres on the fact that certain people have an advantage during the night matches: those that use the descent. I was told that "you can't compete with the Bempton anglers", and at first I thought why, if you can cast and have decent bait surely you can compete. But the answer is purely down to access. Look at the weights that consistently come from here even on night matches, and you can see why the people want to level the playing field. Rationally I can't see any argument to ban the descent on the grounds of the Festival being held responsable for any accident, I and others use it at our own free will and will do any other week in the year. So it boils down purely to that those anglers using it have an advantage over the rest. I think in principle this is a fair point and can understand the reasons. Everyone wants to see a close Festival where competition remains close throughout the week. But this raises questions of access to all other marks as Glenn says, where is safe and unsafe, this is again, like birdash descent, a matter of individual perception. The actual physical demand of the descent differs from no other of a similar length and gradient; Hawsker, Roll-up, Castle Chambers, Holbeck. The only prominent feature that makes it differ is that the danger is profound and the awareness of the danger is immeadiate. But in my opinion it is this fact that makes the descent safer than most, like Rob says you take extra precautions like clipping on. In Health and Safety training you are always told that danger lies where the risk is not known. I have twice nearly come fast in mud at Cornelian and Holbeck cliffs, and it took all my strength to get out. After going down Roll up I must have disturbed some ground, and while I was baiting up my first rig a stone rolled down and hit my rucksack, if it had hit me I think it would have smashed my skull. On these occasions I hardly assessed any risk to myself before using them, and and they all could have been fatal. In short I don't think it is fair to ban those anglers that use the descent, as they simply access the risk, and are not scarred of heights. Some anglers have fear of heights, do you punish those that haven't? Some anglers may have fear of the dark, do you punish those that haven't, no. I think it has to be accepted that rock fishing is dangerous, but I really don't think you can select one area, the debate is simply that people believe those that go down the descent have an advantage, and I don't believe it, if it was true then all shore matches should be held within the harbour
  6. robq

    robq Rockling

    If its a case of banning it as it gives some anglers an advantage, then I think Big juicy fresh edible peelers should be banned too !!

    Cos I cant get any :sad: :sad:

    Seriously though where do you stop ?
  7. big cliff

    big cliff Rockling

    well im not a great banner of fishing marks, but i feel in this instance i feel that is the way to go
    i know of plenty of good anglers who dont fish
    the competition because of this, for those who just havent got the head for it, or the legs to walk round to the marks, it just puts them at a hell of a disadvantage, because results show that very often that is the place to be, and if it helps competition numbers, so be it ----- as i started saying it goes against most of my instincts but i do feel it would be the right thing to do ------ thats if you are looking beyond yourself, and i like to think most people do that
  8. robq

    robq Rockling

    I dont think that its the mark itself but the descent known as birdash that they are talking about banning Big Cliff ?

    As I understand it you will still be able to walk on If you so choose. If thats the case then the usual faces will still be down there when the conditions are right
  9. Jellyworm

    Jellyworm Rockling

    Not a lot to add to this one other than ....having walked on to fish the marks under THE BIRDASH in last Sundays All England there is no way I would fish those marks again unless I go down the ladder,which from now on,fear or not I will be doing.As Rob and Iain say it is the perception of danger not the actual danger, is skipping down akropodes to retreive fish safe ?...we all know it isn't....having stood at the foot of the Birdash on Sunday and watched at least 15 anglers come straight down ...most of which used figure of 8 descenders,I would suggest that most if not everyone who uses that get down is aware of the dasngers and treats the clmb with a degree of respect.
    As for being at an advantage over some ? Well that could be said of thoase who have better knowledge of marks ,better bait,better casting ability,afraid that is life and if the better fish are coming from there then get on it and have your chance as well :yes:
    plus if i d used the ladder I could have saved over an hours slipping falling,bumps bruises and grazes and probably not be as sore as I still am.

    The only issue I wondered about is if the festival organisers are facing increased liability insurance cover costs and would roped access cause even hiigher premiums...maybe ...??

    The whole ethos of the rock roving matches for me is who dares gets to some of the better marks and long may it stay that way.
  10. rubbish

    rubbish New Member

    is it not true though that the anglers using rope access get an extra hour on the bottoms , usually during the more productive times , its just what i have been told. we use a few rope accesses ourselves in our clubs matches but opens are for every one so we banned them for the greater good , what happens if a few novices from out of the area or a few youngsters decide to give it a go because they keep reading or hearing its the done thing in the opens.the good anglers will still prevail werever it is fished but like big cliff says it is not always about ourself there is a bigger picture. 1 life is 1 to many.
  11. robq

    robq Rockling

    That is why the birdash descent is little talked about and the reason that you will find no photos of it on this site Rubbish.

    The last thing we want is young lads having a go without the right gear or guidance !! Having said that I reckon the majority who went to have a look whilst feeling brave would soon come back down to earth with a bump when stood at the top looking down :scared:
  12. andycod

    andycod New Member

    As a regular bird ash user for many years and also a scarborough festival commitee member i feel we must try and find a answer to this problem, lets first get a few things straight,nobody at the present time is going to ban anything as a commitee we will be looking to improve our festival and bring in as as many anglers to compete in every match weather it be from shore ,boat ,kayak etc .the problem is with the numbers of anglers getting less every year our resorces ar getting stretched ,we then after look at what the reasons this may be .After listening to many anglers one reason why they are not participating is the fact they are not prepared to compete against the handfull of anglers who are prepared to climb ropes ie birdash rollup etc .Lets not bring how dangerous any rope is in to this debate thats not the issue .the issue is the good of the festival ,we must run the festival for every angler!!!! not the handfull like myself who will not let anything stand in the way of success ,so hopefully we could get some feedback for you lads to help this matter, after all you suprised me with a kayak match which imo was a fantastic success well done!
  13. quint

    quint Watch out Emperor Zorg's about

    A fair comparison then Andy would be the Filey Festival as the descent is banned - how do the numbers of anglers compare for all matches, I know the North of England had 140+ and sunday's match had 124 ish, a slight decrease, all the top weights in the Filey match came from birdash though - I agree if it helps numbers then try it
  14. Baramundi Bob

    Baramundi Bob Super Leeds United !!!

    Hi Andy,

    Im just playing devils advocate here and putting a few more questions into your pot, please dont take offence if you think Im off the mark. I guess if you pose a question on an open forum you must be willing to take a look at what comes back :wink:. If its purely about numbers fishing would you not think that if you and Ray, Steve and Ade, The Medds and the other top lads were displaced onto the drive or the Brigg end the complaints and problem would just resurface there ?? On average The better anglers will usually come to the top in the match wherever it is fished and that is enough for some to say I wont stand a chance so Im not entering. Its nice to see you are looking at the festival and wanting to make it better but Im not sure if this is the answer. I think the Festival already offers something for everyone with a mixture of big fish, bag and any fish matches, restricted boundaries, Day and night matches. I believe that the big fish matches are a great leveller (as proven by the Story New Dave told of Phil Arlisses father). I would be drawn to fish these matches more than heaviest bag as I would rate my chance much higher.

    Not sure if what is proposed is the answer to making the festival more popular but its good to see you actually willing to investigate potential changes for the future, rather than getting stuck in the past which seems to be the case with some committees. One sure way to find out is to do it :wink: :happy:

    On another note, How about openening the boundaries out to Runswick to encourage some of the northerners to have a crack on an evening :wink: Just a suggestion :whistle:

    On a seprate Issue I would agree with you how nice it was to see the Kayak match was a great success. Full marks to you guys on the committee for taking the gamble on us and to the organisers for coming down and running things for us on the day. You guys work hard to make your festival the success it is and Im sure evryone is very greatful for your efforts.
  15. Dav

    Dav Rockling

    Why not just extend the weighing in times , make it an hour and a half to get back to the weigh in, in specific matches for instance the big weekend ones , That way you may make it in time if you walk . :happy:....either that or just leave it as it is. i really think its wrong discriminating against other anglers who will climb on , next thing we will be banning any descent with a rope . or climb . in any match and we will be all sat on a beach using the same bait etc .you need to push ureself to the top be it doing a 3 mile hike or climbing down ropes n ladders ......Ide say leave it ......For instance the last saltburn open , the ropes were banned but the top lads still done the bizz , a particular top angler was seen nearly upto his neck in water trying to evacuate his chosen mark ,on that mark climbing the rope would of been alot safer .....starting to ban ropes etc in matches is a bad idea in my opinion , it will just make people take greater risks for the same results , possibly causing more accidents , all just to level the field which probably wouldnt be level if you used a spirit level.because of quality baits and knowledge......... :whistle:
    Un ban all accents/descents with rope in opens....
  16. Dav

    Dav Rockling

    I like that aidea me self .....
  17. rubbish

    rubbish New Member

    well then lets all go down all 124 at the same time and see how that works :hurt: surely if the numbers increase by 10 people it is better and what harm is it doing if the same anglers win anyway :yes: surely they would rather win without the climb :whistle: . the facts are that alot of people dont fish because of the ropes. even when travelling north of the tees to all the big matches the lads wont fish saltburn or whitby, redcar opens cos they think its all rope acess or cliff fishing so its not just the scarbro club suffering.
  18. Baramundi Bob

    Baramundi Bob Super Leeds United !!!

    Hi dave, I see the point your raising but think the problem is more about the same people winning rather than where they are winning it from. I think it highly likely that the next step would be another restriction taking away the advantages the keener lads have. I remember reading one dbate on a southern forum where it was proposed to ban whites because the lads using them were winning. Again thats a different debate but similar in a way as they were wanting to take away form the lads willing to put in the extra effort. Without rope access Im not sure what your left with on this coast (not a right lot) and in all honesty I know just as many anglers who wont fish no rope opens as I do those who favour these matches on the grounds of equality.

    Maybe if everyone did start on a level playing field then participation would increase significantly in all events ?? I dont know the answers and can only offer my opinion which admittedly isnt always brilliant. :happy:
  19. robq

    robq Rockling

    When pleasure fishing down bemmo I always use the ladder as it is quicker, easier and I believe safer ( with the correct precautions ) than the walk on. I fell quite badly on the rocks whilst walking last year and hurt my knee :wounded: luckily nothing was broken and I struggled on through the session. I still cannot kneel on that knee even now !! what crossed my mind is that I could have broken my leg down there :scared:

    I think that match attendances and fishing is on a downward curve at the moment anyway, Look at the attendances for the big holderness matches. 20 years ago 1500 + used to be common for the feedex and the diawa, now you are lucky to see half that :sad:

    I dont think you can base a decision on a small a margin as 124 to 140 anglers for different festival matches :no:

    This will always be a contentious issue, pretty much the same as some of the match series on the south coast which impose bait bans to try and retrict the success of the anglers who put in the time and effort to collect quality bait.

    I can see both sides of the argument but I know which side of the fence I am on and would be sad to see restrictions start creeping in up here.

  20. Ramsrod

    Ramsrod Rockling

    Bempton over the years is the most productive mark there,s no doubt but as I,ve said to a lot of anglers in the past it,s not always a mark paved with gold as some anglers think. How many have gone there and failed miserably? There are some top anglers who fish there who know the ground well. Steve I'anson never went there on the Tuesday night as it was a limited boundry match and weighed in his best bag of the week and stuffed the opposition. If you take Sunday as an example there was more anglers down there than I,d ever seen, good anglers, yet Chris Scaife won from the Brigg with double the weight of the best bags at birdash. Andy Crowe was 2nd from another mark too. This year it has been unfortunate as fish have been in short supply from most areas and even though bempton has not fished particulary well, it fished better than most other areas. Would reducing the numbers of fish caught help the festival cause, I,m not so sure. In years gone by other areas have had purple patches like Jacko's, The Drive, The Brigg, Flamborough and others too depending on conditions. I would say it,s more to do with the anglers than the mark as it,s not just the festival they do well in. To ban anything, certainly with a knee-jerk reaction due to a few disgruntled anglers can't be a good thing for our sport as it,s about competition not leveling the playing field.

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